Co-creating culture (Harvey Weinstein and the #metoo campaign)

[hirondelle]

Ok please be gentle with me.  This is the only place I dare post this and it is definitely controversial but I have to express myself or I will go crazy.

Before I say anything let me make the following clear:

• Harvey Weinstein is predator and his behaviour was despicable
• I feel terrible for any woman who suffered sexual abuse or harassment at the hands of a man.  If it was you I am sorry that happened to you and wish we lived in a world where it was unheard of.

However I am really struggling with the #metoo hashtag campaign.  I can see why it is possibly needed but I wish it was different. 

Very briefly (there is a lot I can say but I will try to stay focussed) this is why:

1. Some of the worst sexual harassment I have witnessed in my own organisation was a male upper manager harassing a male senior teacher.  When the senior teacher complained about it the upper management closed ranks and the senior teacher lost his job through 'restructuring'. (For the record I was his second / witness through the whole process, the Senior Teacher was actually disciplined for being homophobic).
2. I have also heard a case of a female upper manager propositioning a male junior staff member, as well as a male manager propositioning a female staff member.  In both cases the junior staff member rebuffed the advances and the story ended.  However in the case of the male manager he lost his job in a re-organisation exercise a year later which was ostensibly unrelated.
3. Among the people I know I have known men and women who suffered sexual abuse at the hands of men, the most distressing case I know of personally happened a young boy and was committed by an older boy.
4. In the Hollywood-type abuses cases although I do not blame the victims neither do I blame only the perpetrators.  Powerful men have been allowed to evolve in a culture that was co-created by men and women.  Blind eyes were turned by just as many Meryl Streeps as Ben Afflecks (despite the butter wouldn't melt in her mouth attitude now).
5. I do not accept the narrative of the patriarchy. 
6. When I was a kid I pulled the legs of insects and burned ants with my magnifying glass like a boy.  I am capable of taking advantage to someone weaker than me, I bullied people at school (I was also bullied), as a teenager I pursued (unsuccessfully) older married men with far more passion than boys my own age, if I had been a rock star I would have fucked groupies, if I had been a female Harvey I may have asked Ryan Gosling to watch me shower. This trait is not gender based, it is just a streak you have and you learn to control (or not).

In summary, cruelty is natural but we do not have to accept it.  However we can only fight it is we take joint responsibility of the culture that enabled it. Abuse and harassment happens to men and women, and if the perpetrators are mostly men it is because they have the power - give more power to women and we will abuse it too.

The current #metoo campaign is trying to make men monsters and the world is just not that black and white.

 

 

 

[Timberwolf]

I'll be honest, my problem with the #metoo hashtag is the simple fact that it does just that, makes men look like monsters.  It doesn't take in to the fact that men that have been sexually harassed or assaulted.  It doesn't take in the fact that women have been also been the portraiture of the sexual harassment or assault.

I personally have seen where a man complained about being sexually assaulted and he was told to basically suck it up and be a man about it, no matter if the harassment or assault is from a man or from a woman.  How is this fair?

[Kenai]

The problem is its acceptable for women to admit to being victimized because its okay for women to be vulnerable.

Men are mocked and stigmatized if they say "hey, I was sexually harassed/molested".  Interesting fact:  out of all the domestic violence shelters in the united states, there is only ONE for men.  It opened in Arkansas of this year.  THIS YEAR.

Out of the existing shelters, only 8 percent are open to both men and women.  The rest are women only.

So male and female are all equal now, or at least pretty close*, yet there is no support for male victims. 

 

**speaking for the united states only

Edited October 17, 2017 by Kenai

[Phoenix]

While I'm otherwise usually on board with the patriarchy narrative, I'm with you here, @hirondelle. Sexual assault comes down to power relations. While it might theoretically be easier to point the finger at rampant testosterone, I would have to imagine there isn't much difference between men and women when it comes to power plays.

Another thing to think about is that, in a country that's painfully conservative and slow to progress, Americans have only really started to look at this problem in the workplace dynamic. Anita Hill and Clarence Thomas was just 25 years ago. That charge has also been led by feminists, and I don't know about you all, but I haven't seen any strong voices advocating for men who have been victims over the years.

Edited October 17, 2017 by Phoenix

[Timberwolf]

There have been, but they tend to be shouted down, because it is believed that they are believed to be masaganistic. You should watch the movie The Red Pill. It brings up a lot of interesting points. 

[Phoenix]

I've heard of the film. I think I've unconsciously avoided it because the red pill subreddit has such an awful reputation.

[Timberwolf]

Nothing against feminism, I'm a huge person for treating everybody equally as we are all part of the human race, but they tend to attack anything to do with The Red Pill, they don't listen to what they have to say, they just want to shut them down.  Sad.  

[Phoenix]

Tangentially related:

University Tells Students to Masturbate Instead of Committing Sexual Assault

Poor Roo.

[hirondelle]

7 hours ago, Phoenix said:

Tangentially related:

University Tells Students to Masturbate Instead of Committing Sexual Assault

Poor Roo.

They should masturbate, but not on cam to strangers... picky picky picky

[Kenai]

On 10/17/2017 at 7:55 PM, Phoenix said:

I've heard of the film. I think I've unconsciously avoided it because the red pill subreddit has such an awful reputation.

You should watch it.  I hate the red pill subreddit because its vile, but the movie is brilliant. 

If I remember correctly, they make a comment about how their movement has been hurt by a lot of nastiness.. In my own opinion, they were referring to the subreddit.

[Kethlia]

The only thing that comes to mind is making an iron clad rule that neither society, religion nor politics could change and establish that rule and change the world over. The only way to do so would to change the preception of sex and sexual conduct to be univerisally respected by all who are in this world until these transgressions stop for good. But, who? when? where? would be willing to make such a sacrifice?

[Timberwolf]

This is all very interesting, and anything that promotes discussion is a very good thing.  

One of the things I have noticed since @hirondelleand I have been experimenting with a few things, that the people in the lifestyle are always talking with each other.  They discuss everything.  They do their best to make sure everything is clear for both parties so there isn't a misunderstanding.  So it really promotes conversation, and this is a very good thing.  The problem is, people generally dismiss them, because they are misunderstood and have false idea about the kind of person they are, which is really sad.