Gender

[Ren]

I am so confused at this point in my life with all this Gender stuff.. I think that the only genders are Male or female..how do these other ones relate?? I just for the life of me cannot understand most. Your either a male or female.. that is the way nature is. I would love to hear others on the subject. Its late for me and would post a bit more but PLEASE enlighten me. I just don't get  it anymore. 

Non-gender, transgender- uhm... I just don't understand. 

[Moonhawk]

If you get the twins in here you will have a very long argument. Dan not so much but his brother... that is what our argument was about so I have left it alone. Male female. Fluent etc etc etc to me is just all bullshit labels that make people feel better. Like I said I can’t declare myself a tree or now I’m a horse. I am a man and if I want to be with another man I’m still a man.not that that will ever happen. Anyways it  doesn’t change what I am. Just my opinion. I respect everyone’s opinion and if you want to consider yourself an ostrich from now on then I shall respect your decision and help you dig the hole to hide your head in because that is the way that I am. I support people’s decisions on what they want for themselves but I can’t call a square a circle just because you decided that is what it is now. I don’t know it is confusing as hell to me.

[Phoenix]

Sex is either male or female, yes, in 99% of humans--it's a biological concept. Gender is a social construction based on sex. This often means just masculinity or femininity. Of course, there are a variety of transitional types, going from those that choose to move permanently between the binary genders with surgery, to those that are more genderfluid, meaning that their gender identities fluctuate. You may also have heard the term cisgender, which simply means that one's gender matches the sex one was assigned at birth. It's a term more common in scholarly research used with respect to transgendered persons to avoid terms like "normal" gender, but it's found its way regular discourse as well.

As for more on the non-binary genders (sometimes called genderqueer), I'd probably best leave that to someone more expert than I, as I'm not terribly familiar. I believe they tend to be either a mixture of masculine or feminine or identification as agender, or without gender entirely.

Edit: After seeing the post by@Moonhawk I should mention that sexual/romantic orientation is also a separate concept from gender. Trans or genderqueer persons have a variety of orientations just as the rest.

Edited September 28, 2017 by Phoenix

[hirondelle]

I think we need to clarify our terms better.  I think there are two biological sexes - male and female, but there is also a condition of being intersex which is when you do not biologically 'conform' to one of those two genders.  Intersex isn't a pleasant word... it is just a biological term.  

Gender is current the resulting manifestation of biology - we can change that, these are all man made concepts, nothing is cast in stone.  

However the reason people are asking to be recognised as other non binary gender is our society is OBSESSED with gender in a way that is unhealthy for all of us.  A girl is expected to be feminine (to a greater or lesser degree) play with dolls (to a greater or lesser degree) like pink (to a greater or lesser degree) wear dresses (to a greater or lesser degree) be emotional and sensitive (to a greater or lesser degree) and find boys attractive (to a greater or lesser degree). Boys have their own set of rules.  

If a boy wants to play with dolls, wear pink dresses, be sensitive and emotional and date boys we consider them a freak (even today) so the only way they can gain acceptance is to transition.  Most boys in this situation transition to the 'other' gender... but some are like - woah wait, hormones, surgery, potential loss of sexual function - that is A LOT to go through simply because I want to wear a dress and hold my boyfriend's hand while I cry at a movie.  That is why we get things like gender fluid and gender queer and a multitude of arguments and politics around this issue.

Imagine a world where we are entirely liberated from gender roles? We can play with what we like, wear what we like, be as tough or as emotional as we like, fuck who we like, marry who we like, behave how we like.  Biological sex becomes something that is only important in medical situations... as peripheral to our lives as our blood type.  We wouldn't be as obsessed with the words that are used to describe us.

Sadly we are a long way from that world, so we have to try and accommodate people's feelings better.  I am not a fan of a massive table of pronouns but I do recognize the need to have a 'other' tick box and at least one pronoun that doesn't scream Barbie or Ken.

 

[hirondelle]

I have a bit of a crush on Contrapoints - s/he has a great video on where we are at today and why we are here

 

[Moonhawk]

11 minutes ago, Phoenix said:

Sex is either male or female, yes, in 99% of humans--it's a biological concept. Gender is a social construction based on sex. This often means just masculinity or femininity. Of course, there are a variety of transitional types, going from those that choose to move permanently between the binary genders with surgery, to those that are more genderfluid, meaning that their gender identities fluctuate. You may also have heard the term cisgender, which simply means that one's gender matches the sex one was assigned at birth. It's a term more common in scholarly research used with respect to transgendered persons to avoid terms like "normal" gender, but it's found its way regular discourse as well.

As for more on the non-binary genders (sometimes called genderqueer), I'd probably best leave that to someone more expert than I, as I'm not terribly familiar. I believe they tend to be either a mixture of masculine or feminine or identification as agender, or without gender entirely.

Edit: After seeing the post by@Moonhawk I should mention that sexual/romantic orientation is also a separate concept from gender. Trans or genderqueer persons have a variety of orientations just as the rest.

It’s all to complicated so no labels IMO is better we are all human period

[Phoenix]

Well, speaking with my sociologist hat on, the problem with that is that biologically, humans are going to have different needs. Whether or not those needs have to come with attached genders is a separate issue, but as long as there are humans with different needs, sociologists, doctors, and others are going to need to be able to identify those groups of persons somehow so they can conduct scientific research on how best to meet those needs.

[Rapture]

Now I have friends on all sides of this trans straight gay etc. I am not transphobic and actually wish most trans people success in their lives and journey to happiness.

That being said...

The gender debate is ridiculous and confuses the crap out of me. Especially since no one wants to "label" it. Labels aren't for you. Their for the next person who doesn't know. The chemist doesn't label the bottle of sulfuric acid because he forgets what it is. He labels it so the next idiot doesn't drink it. 

Seriously. Clearly defining something isn't a bad thing and "I don't know" is an acceptable answer. At the beginning of the year i had 5 friends stuggling with their gender indentity. Through counseling and time two of them have figured out. One is beginning transition the other isn't.

Now for a thing that bothers me. The LGBTw/etFotherletters has always been vocal, deconstructing gender roles and whatnot. Trans people are making it worse.  I've seen them actively harass parents for raising their kid male or female. Naturally these are outliers which do not represent the community as a whole but the fact is it's happening. I'm sorry if I have a girl I'm going to raise her a girl/tomboy and I have a boy. Bingo I know the things.

*This would be where fate steps in kicks Rapture in the nuts and leave him with a baby girl he has no clue what to do with and spend 5 mins poking it, gently, with a stick*

Back on topic:

The gender debate is confusing and ridiculous. And while trans people want acceptance from the CIS gendered, they don't seem to be willing to make concessions to help them understand and accept. I.e. -LABELS!!

 

I'm always willing to admit my wrong if someone explains things to me. That's all I want from the world. To under stand.

 

On a side note gender roles in toys. Barbies or space marines for boys and girls? 

Wanna know what's best for both? 

BARBIES IN POWER ARMOUR!!! Yeah I went there 

[SoulDragon]

Well as fr my opinion for gender there are two, either a male or a female (except for when something went wrong with the cells while you're still in the womb).

As for sexual and romantic preferences there are tons of different types.
I do not feel it's bad to give each a name (label), it's handy when you're talking about it, but it's also for the person in question easier to explain what he/she likes.
It makes it easier to find people who like the same as you. With that last thing i have plenty of experience; for years i thought i was the only person on earth who doesn't likes having sex, it was a horrible experience that lasted for very long. Online searches and such thing didn't come up with anything useful for a long time. Finally i found out that there is a term for people like me and using that i found there ARE other people like me, plenty of them and that we use the term a-sexual to identify ourselves. Within that term there are some more to make it more specific, for instance: i don't like sex but would like a romantic relationship with only woman/men/both woman and men (and many more options). Instead of saying/typing that out completely it's so much easier to say i'm one of the bi-a-sexuals. So instead of being so afraid of putting/getting labels, there are also times it's a good/happy or handy thing. At least I was ecstatic finding out that i'm called an a-sexual.
I also like to say i'm a fantasy-metalhead (these days even a kpop-fantasy-metalhead) when people ask what kind of person are you, it's the same thing and labels can go a long way and even be made up by yourself. (you seriously didn't think kpop-fantasy-metalhead was an existing thing, did you? But using that idiotic label i did find other people who like all three as well hahaha) .
As for raising a girl in a girly way and boys in a boyish way...sorry... but that's just human nature, let's stay human at least a bit please.

But well, maybe i'm too simple thinking like that because i also find it annoying i'm not allowed to call a foreigner a foreigner except when they're on vacation here, and all those other things that are not politically correct. What should i call them when i want to identify them/him/her???? (ok that's another topic)

(btw just to be clear; i don't have a problem with other people having sex and talking about sex etc., otherwise i couldn't stay on this forum  (i even wrote something almost 18+  and now that emoticon has become a dirty one...sorry)

[Rapture]

12 minutes ago, SoulDragon said:

  and now that emoticon has become a dirty one...sorry)

Let's be honest here. It was gonna happened eventually it might as well be you Soulie. 

Edited September 28, 2017 by Rapture

[Kethlia]

The physical genders that I know exist scientifically or otherwise. Male, Female,  Hermaphrodite. I also believe in an androgynous person because we are humans who continue to either evolve or devolve depending on our survival situation.

Then there's genders based on one's mental preference, well there's a list the newest I do not know yet it was based on what  sex they believe their body to be more aligned with than what they were born with.

Social genders are those established to identify one's self both physically and or mentally to those around them. Creating more specific labels to classify themselves as their selected gender mix.

A fourth is one that is a constant pull of your being by the soul/spirit/inner intuition and one that can change depending on length of life lived, environmental factors and fervent belief.

Granted this a very simplistic view of those who have touched my life. Either way they were still human to me.

[Spyder]

On 9/27/2017 at 9:26 PM, Moonhawk said:

It’s all to complicated so no labels IMO is better we are all human period

It’s easy to say this, but the problem is that humans, by nature, want to connect with people who have similar life experiences. As it very often comes down to, different groups of people experience life differently because this isn’t a world where nobody judges others by how they look/identify (I could word that better but I’m typing this out on my phone in bed so whatever). By saying, “This is who I am and how I identify”, people are able to find and connect with those that have gone through things they’re experiencing or people who are going through things they’ve already gone through.

Example time! This board is full of people who reached out looking for others with similar interests in fantasy lit because not everybody likes that genre of books. And then you break that down to people who have a specific fandom for particular series of books. FE was a forum for fans of Goodkind books. Dragonmount is a community of fans that love the Wheel of Time series. 

Now, is that a simplification of an extremely complex subject? Obviously. But it’s a short way of saying that as long as there are people, there will be labels.

Cisgender Heterosexual Male fantasy lit fan, out!

Edited September 29, 2017 by Spyder
I have no idea why, like, half of that is highlited and different but I’m not going to bother trying to fix it.

[Phoenix]

14 hours ago, Kethlia said:

I also believe in an androgynous person because we are humans who continue to either evolve or devolve depending on our survival situation.

This element of the larger picture fascinates me. Birth rates are way down in advanced industrialized areas, so it stands to reason that an outcome of that trend is changes in gender. Other sorts of situations that don't match up with the old concept of a nuclear family (e.g., a homosexual couple with children) are increasingly common. Although with the way social safety nets are constructed, it remains to be seen whether there will be pressure to be churning out babies in the coming decades, I'm still very interested to see how gender evolves in this century.

Personally, I know I don't identify as strongly with masculinity as a lot of men. That might have a lot to do with me not planning to have children. I don't identify with femininity very much though, at least Western society's concept of it. Plus I'm far too lazy for female garb and makeup.

Edited September 29, 2017 by Phoenix

[Kethlia]

@Phoenix I am socially labeled a bi-curious woman. Though I am marrying a man I still feel a part needs to be filled where a female companion may grace my life in such a way. However I still personally identify as Bisexual. But, am in no rush to find her as I just enjoy being who I am currently.

However I do wonder about the function of the genetic occurrence of a hermaphrodite in the past and whether it was not so much a defect or fluke but a actual response to mankinds gender balancing. Does our genetic code actually carry the sequences necessary to delay the (re/de)population of our species just as it carries the genetic code for cellular death?

[Phoenix]

I'm a solid zero on the Kinsey Scale, heh. I just like boobs too much, I guess.

That's an interesting question, and there's of course precedent for it in the animal kingdom with some critters that are able to change sex if there is a critical need. It may simply be mutation in the code, like with uterus didelphys. These things do tend to move slowly, perhaps too slowly for the rate of technological and social change we go through. Seems more likely that gender has the velocity to fill that delay role.

[Kethlia]

@Phoenix It is definitely food for thought.  Granted as I am remembering things that I have watched about gender and sexuality, I can vividly recall a video about Bonobos.  I wonder if this type of lifestyle may have existed or exists for humans too and what effect it would have on all that we know as Homo Sapiens.