Standing during the US National Anthem?

[Timberwolf]

OK, so this is something that Tracy and I have talked about from time to time, and I would like to know your opinions on this.

 

As you all know, Colin Kaepernick decided to kneel during the national anthem last year.  Everybody just kind of went nuts.

 

My questions are;

1. How do you feel about his cause?
2. How do you feel about him and other players kneeling during the national anthem?

 

How do I feel about his cause?  For me, I think his cause is just.  Bring awareness to a problem, no matter how big or small is always a good thing, because once we have awareness, hopefully we will start trying to figure out an answer.

How do I feel about him and other players in the NFL kneeling during the national anthem?  I think it's wrong.  There are so many other ways for him to bring this awareness to peoples notice.  Yes, he made a few tweets, but he could have made more, made comments, public comments, on Facebook, he could have made a video and uploaded it to Youtube or Vimeo.  He could have gone to the news.  Did he do any of these things?  No, he decided to kneel during the national anthem on national television.  Mostly though, I'm not mad at him for this, he got the reaction he was looking for.  I'm more mad all the different news agencies that just went crazy over it.  This is what I think is wrong.

 

Your opinions?

[Rapture]

I don't know if this is something I should comment on. I'm not American I'm Canadian, so it may be inappropriate to comment but if

 I got two thirds through before I couldn't risk the fight that would follow.

Edited September 25, 2017 by Rapture

[Timberwolf]

I'm sorry @Rapture, are you saying you sit during the national anthem?  LOL

[Rapture]

Personally I do. I even stop and stand to attention. But. By contrast what he did and why he did it doesn't bother me.

[Timberwolf]

Living in Thailand, they play the Thai national anthem every morning, and the King's song every evening at 6:00 p.m (18:00), and for the national anthem every morning, I also stand at attention.  I plan on doing a podcast about it.

Ah, ok.  Now I understand.  I understand why he did it.  I just disagree with him doing it there, but mostly, I'm upset with the media.  I can't stand how they handled it.  Just like terroristic acts, they promote the hell out of them, so the next person/group that comes along needs to be worse. 

[Rapture]

Unfortunately that's how the media works. What I'm watching is how it's spread like wildfire and how every time Trump opens his mouth it gets worse.

[hirondelle]

As @Timberwolf knows he and I differ slightly.  Like him I believe Kaepernick has a just cause, but where we differ I think the method while offensive (to uber patriotic white America) is valid.  

Why? Because it got everyone's attention. I don't think the mainstream America understands white privilege.  It is so difficult and painful a topic that it is hard to explain to people what racial equality / inequality means.  It is something you can't see or understand until you get it... so it is hard to persuade someone of it.  But the US football field is one of the few areas where American people of colour have something like equality.  They are brilliant, respected and they are ambassadors.  They have power there - and they are choosing to use that power in a very controversial way.  But let's be honest, they aren't scratching their ass during the anthem, they aren't talking or booing or surreptitiously slipping popcorn into their mouths (which I have done during the Thai anthem at the cinema).  They are kneeling quietly and with dignity.  They are respecting themselves and their right to be considered equal.  And it is long overdue.

Their choice of protest is brilliant - this couldn't happen in the UK as we aren't patriots in the same way.  They have such a long way to go though - but I wish them well.

 

[Timberwolf]

2 hours ago, Rapture said:

Unfortunately that's how the media works. What I'm watching is how it's spread like wildfire and how every time Trump opens his mouth it gets worse.

Ain't that the truth!

@hirondelle, you're right.  I'm just saying they should have used their celebrity in another way. 

[Rapture]

That was basically a big chunk of what I was scared of posting. @hirondelle

[hirondelle]

I understand your fear hun - a lot of people I love feel very differently to me and I don't want to hurt them or make them angry with me.  But I also respect their right to feel the way they do... and trust that they will do the same for me in return.  I have to speak up for what I understand / believe / feel otherwise I am letting these guys down.  Be the change.

Ultimately - This is why I love The Northlands. I would not post this on FB, I know I can here. 

[Timberwolf]

I was just reading my last post, and it's a bit unclear.  It makes it sound like I'm dismissing @hirondelle post or opinions, which I'm not doing.  I believe that they, as ambassadors of the NFL, and Colin Kaepernick as a quarterback, the supposed leader on and off the field, should be the leader.  In my opinion, Colin Kaepernick shouldn't have brought his argument onto the field.  He could have made  his own video, and posted it on YouTube or Vimeo or DailyMotion.  And to make it the best, he could have hired a film crew and done it with the works, and then used his influence to get people to watch it and to share it.

[Spyder]

1 hour ago, hirondelle said:

I don't think the mainstream America understands white privilege.  It is so difficult and painful a topic that it is hard to explain to people what racial equality / inequality means.  It is something you can't see or understand until you get it... so it is hard to persuade someone of it.  But the US football field is one of the few areas where American people of colour have something like equality.  They are brilliant, respected and they are ambassadors.  They have power there - and they are choosing to use that power in a very controversial way.  But let's be honest, they aren't scratching their ass during the anthem, they aren't talking or booing or surreptitiously slipping popcorn into their mouths (which I have done during the Thai anthem at the cinema).  They are kneeling quietly and with dignity.  They are respecting themselves and their right to be considered equal.  And it is long overdue.

I agree with this 100% and couldn't have said it any better.

It's been a slow burn, but it has become the issue du jour in sports, and I am loving every minute of it. So many people in white America love to drape themselves in the flag and talk about how this is the greatest nation on Earth, and that people need to either love it or leave it. But they tend to ignore the fact that it is the greatest nation in the world for them, and that their perspective comes from a place of automatically getting the benefit of the doubt, of not being judged by your name, or having people presume your guilt simply because of the color of your skin. Privilege, in other words. And they can't grasp that the world would be any other way. It just doesn't occur to them that people who look different than the 'norm', which in their minds is, of course, white, would be treated differently, and think it's an excuse. It's not that they don't try to walk a mile in somebody else's shoes, it's that they can't figure out how the other person's shoes go on because they don't look like shoes with which they're familiar (this is, obviously, ignoring the racists and other dopes who are their own issue unto themselves).

39 minutes ago, Timberwolf said:

 I believe that they, as ambassadors of the NFL, and Colin Kaepernick as a quarterback, the supposed leader on and off the field, should be the leader.  In my opinion, Colin Kaepernick shouldn't have brought his argument onto the field.  He could have made  his own video, and posted it on YouTube or Vimeo or DailyMotion.  And to make it the best, he could have hired a film crew and done it with the works, and then used his influence to get people to watch it and to share it.

I don't think a video online would have done what kneeling did. With how quickly things turn over now, it would have been a discussion topic for a week, and then it would have been forgotten. To truly get people talking, it needed to be something simple but something extremely public. And of course, the funny thing about this whole "controversy" is that Kaepernick didn't bring this up with the media. He didn't alert people to the fact that he was going to be sitting during the anthem (as he was initially doing). He was doing it for a couple preseason games before a reporter even noticed and asked him about it. Then it blew up. This was a personal protest that turned into more once the media got hold of it. And maybe the play all along was wait for somebody to notice and ask, make your statement and go from there. But the discussion dies without the public protest. 

[Kenai]

I think its despicable what the media has twisted it into being about.   Most of my debate points have been said by others, so I'll just leave an observation.

Media portray the black lives matter as violent.  Yes, some riot as all protests happen.  And truth be told, a lot of them are more violent than I would like, but I'm speaking from a position of privilege.  I imagine if I had to worry about getting shot over the color of my skin, or worry about my children getting shot I'd be a little violent as well. 

So the media asks sarcastically why they can't protest in peace.

So the NFL players do.  They found a peaceful way to protest and gain attention.

And then the media distorts their message into one of hate, and still points the finger at the other protestors that they're too violent.

[Rapture]

Ok well here goes. The rant of before saved and brought forth. Please don't hate me.

 

 

I don't know if this is something I should comment on. I'm not American I'm Canadian, so it may be inappropriate to comment but if I may.... [spoiler='My Opinion.'] In Canada we as a whole don't take things like flags or anthems as seriously as our southern neighbours do. It's not that they're considered unimportant, just that a focus of external national pride isn't as strong. I hope this little blurb helps to explain the following.

1. How do I feel about his cause? Honestly the fact that racial discrimination still exists has always seemed ridiculous. All humans are human beings. Colour or origin is irrelevent. Brining attention to it is important because we should be living in an age where such things are considered as such.

2. How do I feel about him and others kneeling? I hope this doesn't offend but...i love it. It's a radical idea that draws focus in a peaceful way that many people who would have ignored Twitter or public speaking or other such peaceful forms of protest are sort of forced to notice. What he did and what others are doing is garnering an attention that rivals and in some ways out performs any other way. And it's honestly impressive. That he did it during the national anthem resonates more with me. The action of taking a knee is an old one. Usually associated with seeking guidance or owing fealty. To me it's as if he is reaffirming his belief in what the United States was founded on. Freedom and equality. Two ideals that sadly lacking at the moment.

I'm willing to admit I'm wrong but this is how I see it. People have made speeches and videos. Now we see someone taking a completely non verbal and peaceful protest and getting stunning amounts of attention. I hope it serves the cause well.

[Timberwolf]

55 minutes ago, Spyder said:

I agree with this 100% and couldn't have said it any better.

It's been a slow burn, but it has become the issue du jour in sports, and I am loving every minute of it. So many people in white America love to drape themselves in the flag and talk about how this is the greatest nation on Earth, and that people need to either love it or leave it. But they tend to ignore the fact that it is the greatest nation in the world for them, and that their perspective comes from a place of automatically getting the benefit of the doubt, of not being judged by your name, or having people presume your guilt simply because of the color of your skin. Privilege, in other words. And they can't grasp that the world would be any other way. It just doesn't occur to them that people who look different than the 'norm', which in their minds is, of course, white, would be treated differently, and think it's an excuse. It's not that they don't try to walk a mile in somebody else's shoes, it's that they can't figure out how the other person's shoes go on because they don't look like shoes with which they're familiar (this is, obviously, ignoring the racists and other dopes who are their own issue unto themselves).

I don't think a video online would have done what kneeling did. With how quickly things turn over now, it would have been a discussion topic for a week, and then it would have been forgotten. To truly get people talking, it needed to be something simple but something extremely public. And of course, the funny thing about this whole "controversy" is that Kaepernick didn't bring this up with the media. He didn't alert people to the fact that he was going to be sitting during the anthem (as he was initially doing). He was doing it for a couple preseason games before a reporter even noticed and asked him about it. Then it blew up. This was a personal protest that turned into more once the media got hold of it. And maybe the play all along was wait for somebody to notice and ask, make your statement and go from there. But the discussion dies without the public protest. 

This is a great post and very well thought out.  I do take an exception to a few things that you said though.  That being said, you are entitled to your opinion, and I asked people to express them.  Thank you.

39 minutes ago, Kenai said:

I think its despicable what the media has twisted it into being about.   Most of my debate points have been said by others, so I'll just leave an observation.

Media portray the black lives matter as violent.  Yes, some riot as all protests happen.  And truth be told, a lot of them are more violent than I would like, but I'm speaking from a position of privilege.  I imagine if I had to worry about getting shot over the color of my skin, or worry about my children getting shot I'd be a little violent as well. 

So the media asks sarcastically why they can't protest in peace.

So the NFL players do.  They found a peaceful way to protest and gain attention.

And then the media distorts their message into one of hate, and still points the finger at the other protestors that they're too violent.

100% correct in how the media handled it.  

21 minutes ago, Rapture said:

Ok well here goes. The rant of before saved and brought forth. Please don't hate me.

 

 

I don't know if this is something I should comment on. I'm not American I'm Canadian, so it may be inappropriate to comment but if I may.... [spoiler='My Opinion.'] In Canada we as a whole don't take things like flags or anthems as seriously as our southern neighbours do. It's not that they're considered unimportant, just that a focus of external national pride isn't as strong. I hope this little blurb helps to explain the following.

1. How do I feel about his cause? Honestly the fact that racial discrimination still exists has always seemed ridiculous. All humans are human beings. Colour or origin is irrelevent. Brining attention to it is important because we should be living in an age where such things are considered as such.

2. How do I feel about him and others kneeling? I hope this doesn't offend but...i love it. It's a radical idea that draws focus in a peaceful way that many people who would have ignored Twitter or public speaking or other such peaceful forms of protest are sort of forced to notice. What he did and what others are doing is garnering an attention that rivals and in some ways out performs any other way. And it's honestly impressive. That he did it during the national anthem resonates more with me. The action of taking a knee is an old one. Usually associated with seeking guidance or owing fealty. To me it's as if he is reaffirming his belief in what the United States was founded on. Freedom and equality. Two ideals that sadly lacking at the moment.

I'm willing to admit I'm wrong but this is how I see it. People have made speeches and videos. Now we see someone taking a completely non verbal and peaceful protest and getting stunning amounts of attention. I hope it serves the cause well.

@RaptureI asked for your opinion, and I can respect it.  The fact that you're not from U.S. doesn't meant you can't have an opinion on it.  When I ask an opinion question, I actually want to hear it, it doesn't matter if I agree with it or not.  I'm happy to discuss it.  I may get upset, or even angry, but I give me a few moments/minutes to cool down, and we can continue to discuss it.  You are absolutely correct that the United States was found on freedom and equality, and it's seriously lacking in the States, and has been for a long time.

 

OK, first, let me thank you all for your thoughts and words.  I need to clarify some things.   When I started this thread, my idea was to debate how the media handled it, but I phrased it wrong.  

1. Do I understand why Colin Kaepernick and other football players are doing this? A resounding YES!
2. Do I think there are racial inequalities in the United States.? Again, a resounding YES!
3. Do I agree with the way the football players are handling it? No, which I will explain later. **
4. Do I love my country? A resounding YES!
5. Do I want to see my country change for the better? A resounding YES!
6. Do I disagree with how the media handled it? A resounding YES!  I will explain later.  **

 

• Explanation #1 - I am a huge advocate of the U.S.'s first amendment, which is freedom of speech, so although I don't agree with them kneeling on the field during national anthem, I 100% support their freedom of speech, and will defend their right to kneel on the sideline/field or where the phuk ever they want during the national anthem.
• Explanation #2 - Yes, I think the media twisted this for the specific purpose to rile people up and blew it hugely out of proportion.  They do this a lot.  It's like the last few year, the mainstream media is more concerned about getting ratings and clicks than they are about actually reporting the truth, and they are more concerned with reporting negative things than they are with reporting positive things, almost celebrating it, so the next person/group that comes a long wants to be bigger and badder than the one before.

[Rapture]

Wasn't worried about starting a fight with you Wolf. But you're not the only American. 

[Mirbiggs]

while I support their right to stand or kneel during the national anthem, it's distasteful to not stand. it shows national pride for your country when you stand for our national anthem.  not your government.  everyone who lives in these states or considers themselves Americans should be proud to be an American.  I'm a very proud American I support our troops and our police... That being said I think that our government is pure evil.  I think the men and women who run our government are bought and paid for by big oil,  power,  pharma, tobacco,  and similar companies who want their product sold with as little regulation as possible.  If you can contribute money to state and government officials in Return Of favors done that sounds shady.  Why? Because it is shady as fuq. Cops are human and can be fallible. They make mistakes.  They can be Asshole just like average Joe down the street.  They can be sadistic and violent.  But the few horrible cops don't speak for the hundreds of thousands of good cops who uphold our constitution every day.  Who would sacrifice their own lives to defend our constitutional rights.  Police violence gets worse every day because people are worse every day. It's a horrible cycle. I say if you should protest something do it about something that would make a better statement.  Protest your governor, or your senator.  Sit on the lawn of City Hall with a bullhorn.  Go to your state capitol and actually do something beside showing that you're ashamed to be an American.  

Edited September 25, 2017 by Mirbiggs

[Phoenix]

To add another wrinkle to this conversation, the protest has brought another issue back into the national discourse that has bothered me for a long time now: the pageantry and nationalism displayed before NFL games, I find it uncomfortable. It's what baffles me when folks say they oppose Kaepernick's protest because it brings politics onto the field. That's been done at least since Super Bowl XXV to what it's evolved to today: service members on the field (who are there, by the way, not out of the kidness of the NFL, but as part of a paid deal with the Department of Defense). Flyovers. Flags of larger and larger size. It's political, and folks like @Rapture brings some sorely needed outside perspective to the matter--much of the world just does not do this sort of thing.

I'm not religious, but Jehovah's Witnesses refuse to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance. They view it as idolatry and swearing blind fealty. I can't help but wonder if they are onto something.

[Kethlia]

1. How do you feel about his cause?

As far as I know and I don't trust media. It is a demostration about freedom of speech and defending the minority against their rights being suppressed.  I say stand and fight for the rights that our founding fathers fought for because those same suppressed rights were in their homelands too.

1. How do you feel about him and other players kneeling during the national anthem?

I honestly do not feel offended by a person or people taking a knee during the national anthem as to me that is a deeper sign of respect up to laying prone before your deity.  Again I do not trust the media so I take what little I watch or hear with a grain of salt.

[Timberwolf]

8 hours ago, Phoenix said:

I'm not religious, but Jehovah's Witnesses refuse to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance. They view it as idolatry and swearing blind fealty. I can't help but wonder if they are onto something.

I agree with you here @Phoenix, I don't think anybody should be forced to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance.  I did a bit of a ranting podcast about this.  

[Squarepeg]

On 25/09/2017 at 5:53 PM, Mirbiggs said:

Go to your state capitol and actually do something beside showing that you're ashamed to be an American.  

I don't believe that it has anything to do with being ashamed of being American. I think they're speaking out to those that are ashamed that these "people of colour" ARE American. I hate that phrase, people of colour. They're not people of colour, they're just people.

[Spyder]

On 9/25/2017 at 11:53 AM, Mirbiggs said:

 it's distasteful to not stand. it shows national pride for your country when you stand for our national anthem.  not your government.  everyone who lives in these states or considers themselves Americans should be proud to be an American.

A couple things here @Mirbiggs:

1) Standing for the anthem of your country when there's overwhelming evidence that people who look like you are treated as less than by the major institutions of the nation has to be at least as distasteful as you find them kneeling to be.  

2) If one is proud of the country, it should be for a reason, not simply because you are an American. I'm happy that I'm American, because it affords me opportunity I wouldn't necessarily have had I been born elsewhere. But these days I take no pride in being American, not given the way the country continues to treat women, people of color (I'll get to this in a second, @Squarepeg), the poor, veterans and other giant swaths of the population that aren't cisgender, white, heterosexual males. We pay lip service to equality while one of our political parties continues to assail the voting rights of people who tend to vote for their opponents. Half the government is actively working to take away healthcare from people who can't afford it. A sitting Senator told high school kids that food, shelter and healthcare are privileges!  Also: we have a narcissistic circus peanut for a President. I'm not saying that I need all these things to be fixed for me to be proud of my country, but I do need for the problems to be addressed before I would find myself boasting of being an American.  Pride for the sake of pride serves no purpose.

11 hours ago, Squarepeg said:

I don't believe that it has anything to do with being ashamed of being American. I think they're speaking out to those that are ashamed that these "people of colour" ARE American. I hate that phrase, people of colour. They're not people of colour, they're just people.

Agree with you on the fact that the people protesting aren't ashamed of being American. They're ashamed of how America treats many of its citizens. 

And while I agree with you that, of course, people of color are, first and foremost, people, there needs to be a differentiation because of the fact that they're treated differently than others based on the color of their skin. If everybody were truly treated equally, perhaps it wouldn't be necessary and everybody would simply be people, but until then it's a label that simply signifies that a person isn't white (the assumption of white as the standard being it's own issue) rather than use of one of the denigrating terms that has been historically deemed "appropriate" for purposes of classification. 

[hirondelle]

I was hoping someone would come in and justify the use of ppl of colour because I didn't feel up to it haha.  I would love to live in a world where minorities are just people... but I don't.  It isn't just America or the west - I am sure you have seen how Ethnic majority Burmese are treating Rohingya at the moment.  I wish I didn't need to use this phrase, too.  But the reality is that we need a term when we discuss issues like race in a neutral way.  

[Phoenix]

In group, out group. It's a story as old as organized humans. If it weren't skin color, it would be something else.

I refuse to give him credit for doing it consciously, but the president has managed to fully divert the conversation away from the intent Kaepernick and other players had. Now the national discourse is dominated by talk about is the flag and the military instead of minority oppression. It has to be so frustrating for them.

[Kethlia]

This is purely speculation on my part as I still don't see or understand the offense of kneeling.

If our world within the U.S. Of A were one in which all were subjected in the extreme to a political dictatorship. To the point that even those called to serve in the armed forces weren't given a say or rights just like everyone else. But, were instead forced to bear the dictatorship's media, audio, and societal dehumanizations of everyone who was not part of the political party.  Would you as members of the armed forces still find the strength of Will to stand for that flag? Or, in exercising the rights of an age past. Would you unit with cilvilians in fighting against such suppression, but in a way that showed your love for this country by peacefully kneeling in protest? No riots, violence marches, mutinies or bombing boycotts. Would you kneel to protest for a better, if not equal treatment as those who are part of the political party?